This is the second chapter in the study related to the The Katabolé – Satan’s war with God. In this edition we will analyze the concept of our pre-existence in the time of the fall of Satan in scripture.
A prophecy was given in the 2nd Book of Peter which talks about scoffers in the End Times that would joke about the return of Jesus. They would be ignorant of the Katabolé and the age of the Earth. They would not have enough knowledge of scripture to understand how God destroyed the Earth after Satan’s rebellion in the first Earth age. You can clearly see today how this prophecy has now been fulfilled:
2 Peter 3:3Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 5For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:7But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
It is important to know the truth about the End Time prophecies, why we are here now and the age of the Earth.
When a person is considering becoming a Christian, we as teachers can’t be ignorant. Our answer to that new Christian must be supported by scripture so we can direct the person to read the truth. In this article we are going to look at the scriptural support for pre-existence and predestination from the viewpoint of the Katabolé. Does scripture identify where the line is drawn between God’s foreknowledge and an actual pre-existing relationship before we were sent to Earth to inhabit these bodies.
The History of Pre-Existence
The apostle Paul mentions the mystery kept secret since the ‘world’ began:
Romans 16:25Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
This mystery kept secret is God’s full plan for the restoration to grace of Man and the Earth after the fall of Satan. Throughout history as Satan learned small pieces of the plan, he would move to block God’s plan:
- The corruption of Eve
- The Nephilim – Sons of God mixing with woman
- The Anakim and Rapheimbefore Noah’s flood
- The giants in the promise land
- The corruption of David
- Herod killing all the male babies
Between 200 BC to 553 AD pre-existence was a “commonplace” concept and the early Church shared the same teaching and continued to do so until it was condemned by the Council of Constantinople in AD 553.
The writings of Philo and Josephus show that this belief was still active in late Judaism, which held that the soul had existed before it was drawn into a body, whence it longs to return after death.
Philo De SomniisCreation XXIV (75)It is on this account that Moses says, at the creation of man alone that God said, Genesis 1: 26“Let us make man in our image, after our likeness,” which expression shows an assumption of other beings to himself as assistants, in order that God, the governor of all things, might have all the blameless intentions and actions of man, when he does right attributed to him; and that his other assistants might bear the imputation of his contrary actions.
Flavius Josephus – The Wars Of The Jews Or The History Of The Destruction Of Jerusalem Book II –Chapter 8That bodies are corruptible, and that the matter they are made of is not permanent; but that the souls are immortal, and continue for ever; and that they come out of the most subtile air, and are united to their bodies as to prisons, into which they are drawn by a certain natural enticement; but that when they are set free from the bonds of the flesh, they then, as released from a long bondage, rejoice and mount upward.
It is amazing to read these commentaries from this early time period. Philo, in 40 AD was pondering the exact same questions raised in this article. Who is the “us” and “our”? Is this the Father and Son or others? Josephus equates man in the flesh as a prison for the soul. The belief in the time of Christ was supportive of pre-existence.
We also see this same concept the scripture of Paul:
2 Corinthians 5:1For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 3If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 4For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. 5Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.6Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
The Protestant based denominations adopted the Roman Catholic ban on teaching pre-existence and we can see the ripples in the Church today. The ban was brought about because of political power struggles within the Church. Church leaders claimed it taught reincarnation even though scripture clearly says:
Hebrews 9:27And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Accusations of heresy allowed some to be condemned while others moved up in rank.
References to the soul residing in Heaven with God were also present in the first King James 1611 edition of the Bible. It is uncommon today to see the books of the Apocrypha included in the Bible.
The original King James 1611 Bible included in it’s printing the Book of Esdras. This is one of the Apocrypha books which along with the book of Enoch and Wisdom of Solomon refer to pre-existing souls. The chamber of souls is a place created by God for the souls to reside until they are placed in a flesh body to be tested here on Earth:
KJV 1611 – 2 Esdras 4:35Did not the soules also of the righteous aske question of these things in their chambers, saying, How long shall I hope on this fashion ? when commeth the fruit of the floore of our reward ?36 And vnto these things Vriel the Archangel gaue them answere, and said, Euen when the number of seedes is filled in you: for he hath weighed the world in the ballance. 37 By measure hath hee measured the times, and by number hath he numbred the times; and he doeth not mooue nor stirre them, vntill the said measure be fulfilled.
In the verse from Esdras God is waiting on a set number of souls to be sown here on Earth to fulfill his plan. We also see a mirror of this concept again in the scripture of Paul:
Romans 11:25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
We can also learn that in the days the disciples were with Jesus, they believed a soul could have sinned prior to being sent to Earth. Look at the question they asked him:
John 9:1And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth. 2And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? 3Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.
We know that these miracles confirmed Jesus as the Messiah foretold by Isaiah:
Isaiah 35:5Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped.
We have strong evidence that in the time frame that the New Testament was written the common belief was that souls existed with God and was sent to Earth for a test or prison, but the soul longed to be back with God. We can also see how Paul echoes the pre-existence of the soul in many of his letters. From other research on the writing of Paul, we know that the Greek text in Paul’s letters are encoded with complex algorithms of 7s. This confirms the letters and the heptadic structures are the message of God through Paul.
Scripture Supports Pre-Existence
If we start with the Book of Job and Genesis we see hints that God was not alone and souls existed before this Earth age. The concept of more than one Earth Age is foreign to most Christians. Pre-existence is a natural question that comes up when the history of Satan and the Katabolé are studied.
Job 38:4 KJV
4Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
5Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
Who are the morning stars and the sons of God?
Relelation 12:4And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth:
Judges 5:20They fought from heaven; the stars in their courses fought against Sisera.
Revelation 1:20The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.
Sons of God:
Luke 20:36Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection
John 1:12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
1 John 3:1Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. 2Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
We must remember the Katabolé and what happened in the Time Satan rebelled against God was a mystery until it was later revealed. However the verse in Job definitely is speaking of others that were with God when he laid the foundation of this world.
In the book of Genesis God make a statement that reflects that he is not alone in the beginning of this Earth age:
Genesis 1:26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness
The “us” and “our” again seem to hint that God is not alone during the creation of the flesh body.
If Moses and Paul are not good enough for evidence, we have a very direct and clear message from Jesus. Jesus himself tells Nicodemus about our soul coming down from the Father:
John 3:12If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? 13And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
The Apostle Paul’s writings seem to reflect not just in 2 Corinthians 5:1, but in the book of Hebrews the idea that our souls were sent to earth as pilgrims:
Hebrews 11:13These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
Ephesians 1:4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Paul even expounds on the idea that God had afore prepared us as vessels:
Romans 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles
When Jacob and Esau were still in the womb, God loved Jacob and hated Esau:
Malachi 1:2 I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob’s brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob, 3And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.
Romans 9:10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; 11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) 12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
God had to already known something about the two. Did God know the souls of Esau and Jacob before they entered into Rebekah’s womb? How could God hate Esau before he was born?
Many have pointed to the Esau and Jacob mystery and labeled it the foreknowledge of God. However knowing that God can see the beginning and end in this case does not rule out that both Esau and Jacob may have known God before they were born.
We do not Remember
We see that our memories of this time before this Earth age are not remembered:
Ecclesiastes 1:11There is no remembrance of former things; neither shall there be any remembrance of things that are to come with those that shall come after.
The Elect and Predestination
Are theElectthe souls that existed in the first Earth age who did not follow Satan in the Katabolé. There is scriptural support that God knew the Elect before the Foundations of the World and even predesignated some of them to task to be completed here on Earth.
Romans 11:2God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, 3Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. 4But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. 5Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
The elect are the remnant of people who did not bowed the knee to (Baal) Satan worship.
While addressing the Ephesians, Paul said that God had chosen them “before the foundation of the world. Were those souls to whom Paul was speaking chosen before Genesis 1:1? “chosen us in him before the foundation of the world”What did God say happed in the Book of Job before the foundations of the World? “the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy”
We see this echoed again by Paul in his letter to the Ephesians:
Ephesians 1:3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: 4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will
The Elect were tried and found blameless before the foundation of the world. God chose them. They were chosen for a specific reason.
Church Doctrine and Reality
Did Jesus die for everyone or just some who were predestined? Does God predesignate Salvation without giving the person a freewill to choose whether or not he wants to serve God?
- The Arminians, or Arminianism in the Protestant faith hold that God does not predetermine, but instead infallibly knows who will believe and perseveringly be saved.
- The Calvinist Protestant doctrine states that God has mercy or withholds it, with particular consciousness of who are to be the recipients of mercy in Christ and who is predestine to burn in Hell. The Calvinist view is that the Elect are predestined to salvation regardless of their choices in life.
The doctrine of men have tried to twist the Word of God for hundreds of years to fit what men needed it to say. Sometimes this was for power and other times it has been to control the people of a time or region.
Are the Elect who pre-existed with God before the foundations of the World predestined for Salvation while others are predestined to Hell?
What does the Bible really say:
II Peter 3:9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
I John 1:1My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
Freewill and predestination are not exclusive – God’s foreknowledge or ability to see the beginning and end of our choices does not interfere with our free will to choose.
The telescope can be used as a time machine. Light takes time to travel from one place to another. We see objects not as they are now but as they were at the time when they released the light that has traveled across the universe to us. The star light you see is not current but the light the star emitted thousands of years ago.
If you were able to adjust the telescope to see short distances and also long distances and could observe a single man’s life, you would know his past and future by seeing the light reflected from him from his beginning and end. However you have not predestined him to make the choices in his life, you just know the beginning and the end result of the choices.
Because God can see the beginning and end of the time line does not mean we have no freewill to choose salvation. Scripture supports a dynamic outcome of our choices to repent and follow God and salvation through Jesus.
If God can see the full time line by folding the fabric of space which allows him to see both the beginning and end the outcome can be dynamic, not static as the Calvinist view reflects.
Do some have a purpose before they are sent here to this Earth? Were some sent to do a specific task for God here on Earth?
In the Book of Jeremiah we are told Jeremiah was preordained:
Jeremiah 1:5Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
Did God just have foreknowledge of how Jeremiah would turn out because he can see the beginning and end or did he know Jeremiah personally before Jeremiah was sent to Earth?
Romans 8:28And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. 29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Were the disciples of Jesus predesignated to be called to service when God foreknew them in the First Earth Age? From the study of scripture, God’s plan for the restoration of man through the sacrifice of the Lamb of God was in place from the beginning of this current Earth age.
Before Satan fell he was anointed as a guardian cherub, and he was blameless from the day he was created, until wickedness was found in him (Ezekiel 28:14,15). Then he, and his throne were cast down to the earth; and, ever since, his goal has been to raise his throne above God (Isaiah 14:12,13). Please refer to the study on this subject: The Katabolé – Satan’s war with God
The Earth was Destroyed after the Katabole
2 Peter 3:5For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:7But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
Jeremiah 4:24I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.25I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.26I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence ofthe LORD, and by his fierce anger.27For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.
|Katabole Flood||Noah’s Flood|
Earth made waste - “But the earth became (or “had become”) without form, and void”.
2 Peter 3:6Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
Earth not made waste but was covered with water to kill the Nephilim
Gen. 6:4, 8:11, 12,22; Heb.11:7; 1 Pet.3:20; Jude 1:6
Earth was totally dark
Not totally dark
No day and night
There was day and night
All vegetation destroyed
Gen.1:2; 2:5-6; 2 Peter 3:5-6
Vegetation not destroyed
All fish were totally destroyed in the Katabole
No fish were destroyed or created again after Noah's flood
No fowls left on earth
Fowls were left after Noah's flood
No animals left on Earth
Gen.1:2; 2 Peter 3:5-6
Some of all animals kept alive
Gen.6:20; 8:17; 9:2-4,10-16
|No souls of men left on Earth||Gen. 1:26-28||
An ark was made - men and women were saved after Noah's flood
Teachers today avoid all but just the milk teachings and flee from any meat. In this research we definitely got into the meat of the subject:
1 Corinthians 1And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. 2I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
Hebrews 5:13For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. 14But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.